Three interviews
I
Warsaw, June
2003, before a Naked City concert
(with Michał Libera and Krzysztof Trzewiczek)
We
had this strange idea about starting with the question of melody – what
do you think about it?
What do
you understand by melody?
É that was the
question we wanted to ask youÉ
Actually itÕs an interesting question
because I think melody is at the very center of what I do, but rather loosely
defined, or defined and used in a number of different ways. At its most
mathematical melody is a series of durations, so itÕs not necessarily a tune,
for example.
And itÕs not
necessarily a theme, is it?
No. For
example, I work with a construction principle which I call Ōblock-melodiesÕ.
This is a way to construct linear narratives out of widely different kinds of
material. First I generate a set of durations. Sometimes the numbers for these
durations come from reading the newspaper – the Wall Street Journal is
very good in that respect – so I may have a random set of numbers like 4,
9, 17, 1, 37 and so on. These numbers correspond to durations, and for each
duration I can create a sound-world, say, distorted flute, percussion and
somebody dropping rice onto a violin or something. Now every time the same number occurs in the series, I might
make that same sound-world - thatÕs one way to do it. In the studio when I
construct these blocks of material I can record each block separately, I donÕt
even need to listen to everything else. All the fives first and than all the
fours and all the nines and in the end youÕll have something, which sounds like
euhh, ee, uuu, e huu [I donÕt really know how to notate that]. And for me thatÕs the melody,
made out of blocksÉ
How many blocks
are there?
Oh, it
could be any number. That depends on what youÕre doing. Do you know Accidental? ThereÕs a lot of
Ōblock-melodiesÕ in that.
Does this have
anything in common with another compositional principle, which you called
Ōmelody extractionÕ?
ŌMelody extractionÕ is a principle of
seeing if you can derive all of your material from one central melody in a
continuous, chronological sequence. Pacifica, for example. Pacifica consists of 14 bars of quarter
notes, a quarter-note melody, very regular. This is also necessarily harmonic -
just as you canÕt have two notes succeeding each other without creating the
idea of an interval, so you canÕt have three or more notes next to each other
without creating the idea of a harmony. The quarter-note line in Pacifica, which is rather slow, goes through a kind of harmonic
contour, and our perception of that contour is constantly changing. What was interesting for me was to take
this melodic line and say: Ņwell, if I take the second note of the second
measure and use that as a starting point for a new melody and let it sustain
until the fourth note of the ninth measure than it will create a kind of slow
counter-series with its own harmonic and intervallic possibilitiesÓ. The whole
piece was a way to see if I could be consistent to that idea. Always in
chronological sequence, but trying to create new information out of it.
Eventually there are subtexts - eighth-notes or sixteenth-notes in between the
quarter notes - and they have potential for melody extraction as well. So it
can become quite complicated.
But the main
idea is to takeÉ
Éis to
take information out of one melody and to create other melodies out of it,
without using compositional techniques associated with serialism, like
retrogrades and other inversions – the chronology is the key to the technique.
ItÕs easy to hear when itÕs slow like Pacifica, but in a piece, do you know my
record with Ferdinand Richard called Dropˇra? ThereÕs a lot of melody
extraction in Dropˇra, and thatÕs quite fast. In a way itÕs just deciding to emphasize
certain notes in a sequence, which creates melody, or more accurately, which
draws attention to a melody which is already there, but which is only
subliminally there unless you start making that accent. But the principle is to
derive all the material absolutely clearly from the same source.
And how is it
related to the guitar quartets and string quartets?
Most of
the guitar quartet pieces that IÕve written - The as Usual DanceÉ or in some places Motormouth, - have Ōmelody extractionÕ parts
and also The as Usual DanceÉ has some Ōblock-melodyÕ parts. So there are ideas like that. But
sometimes I work in a very different way, but since you want to talk about
melody weÕre talking about melodyÉ.
We – I
mean we as listeners – always thought about your music as something
spaciousÉ let me try to explain this: itÕs like the lines of different
instruments are well prepared to interrelate with each other to make everything
integral whole. Maybe a metaphor of constructing a space would be a good one;
or maybe of organizing a space by particular instruments, melody lines or
whatever?
I think
any music making, of any description, involves a specific relationship with
physical space and its properties. When I talk with my students about
improvising I often make the point that being a soloist does not mean filling a
space – it means owning a space. And that these two things are not the
same. And if, as a soloist, all you can do is fill the space – than
youÕre probably not listening because you havenÕt got time to listen. And
therefore owning a space just means Ņthis belongs to me – how am I going
to use it effectively?Ó But those two things will be important. So having a
relationship with the musical space is really important.
In the terms youÕre talking about – creating that kind of
space – I think IÕm very much influenced by the cinema. I think actually
most musicians are very influenced by the cinema. I donÕt think itÕs avoidable;
I think that since 1930s all music has to have some kind of relationship with
film. Because film is the predominant popular culture in the world and music is
used by the cinema for very different kinds of significations. We know that if
you take a piece of Schoenberg and ask somebody to listen to it, they will
probably find it completely horrible. But if they go to a movie and hear the
same kind of music they wonÕt even notice it – it will be a part of the
total experience. And so thereÕs a complete disjuncture between the idea of
what you sit down and listen to as Music, and whatÕs going on when you watch a
movie, where you get all kinds of styles and music used to serve the narrative.
And I think as a musician you canÕt avoid having some kind of relationship with
that. ItÕs not just about doing film soundtracks but about watching a lot of
movies and being aware how music has developed in the history of cinema. And
this way of creating narrative structure I think has changed music forever.
I think also as a rock musician my fundamental learning about being
a composer didnÕt take a place in the Academy or as a virtuoso – because
IÕm not a virtuoso and I never went to the Academy – it took place in
recording studio. And for me as a composer most of my techniques come from what
happened to me in the studio. So in my composition, even when IÕm notating, the
ideas about what I can do in the studio become the things that I put in the
music score. The recording studio process is a parallel for the film process.
And I think most rock musicians have been through this process of creating
music in the studio using what Brian Eno eventually referred to as Ōusing the
studio as a compositional toolÕ, which in fact is what everybody who has ever
used a studio has always been doing. This is a process that necessarily goes
along with whatÕs happening when youÕre putting things together in the
recording studio. And itÕs very similar to the process that goes on when youÕre
editing a film. When you have material and you have to try to make it work in
the right and convincing amount of space. What fascinates me in the situation
that weÕre in right now is that it is only in rock music that the significance
of the invention of the recording has been fully realized. In the world of
classical music the studio is still used as a way to create a kind of idealized
perfect version of a piece. And nobody actually uses the studio as a way to
create structure or the way to create a piece from scratchÉ
Édo you mean
they want to make it as neutral as possible?É
É I
mean itÕs very interesting because obviously the studio is used in a very
sophisticated way in a classical music. If you hear a piece of Wagner opera
there are probably 350 edits and itÕs taken from 20 different performances in
the studio so obviously they are well aware of the advantages of working that
way but theyÕre creating an illusion – just like Hollywood is creating an
illusion – of a certain kind of reality, which has nothing to do with whatÕs
actually happening. And it seems to me interesting that the composer could get
into that situation and actually use the fact that youÕre recording. Stretching
and editing everything to create a piece of music in the studio; using it as a
technique with musicians. Whereas that has only really happened in the world of
rock music. Jazz music is considered to be a performance medium and so with the
exception of the period during the seventies when Miles Davis was doing a lot
of editing, itÕs still fundamentally about getting the best performance
possible. And the irony in this case is that jazz would never have developed at
all if it wasnÕt for recording. I mean basically this was the first time that
anybody could actually study a solo so all those people out there playing a
Charlie Parker solo they are doing it because they can actually hear a Charlie
Parker solo on a record and learn it. So the music developed as an intellectual
construct because of the birth of the recording, but recording didnÕt actually
change the music except from this point of view of people learning how to play
it. And in classical music it changed what could be done in a studio to make
the music absolutely perfect realization of what composer wanted. But in rock
music because they didnÕt have to deal with virtuoso-technique and they didnÕt
have to deal with a composition, which is already in existence on paper, the
studio was something quite different. In other words it was the beginning point
and not the ending point.
That reminds us
about ŌMaybe MondayÕ project or Henry Cow – did the idea about using the
studio start with those projects?
Well in
the case of Henry Cow back in the early seventies when we first went into a
studio we were really young and na•ve and we were entirely a performance band
so our first record was about Ōhow to do our musicÕ and we soon discovered that
it was just an incredible tool – a 16 track tape, we didnÕt really all
have to play at the same time or we could do something later or when we made a
mistake we could do it again and this was completely exciting! But it also led
us to think that next time when we do a record why not take it as a starting
point rather than the ending point. So on our record ŌUnrestÕ we spent two
weeks improvising and then listening to the improvisation and say if we take
this little three minutes here itÕll be a song if we add this part to it. So it
was about notating and adding parts and making loops – creating the music
out of the improvisation and turning it into something else. And I still think
that that was a fairly revolutionary thing to do at the time. IÕve done a lot
of recording using similar methods but with the improvisation I had the feeling
that I got to the end of a certain way of dealing with improvisation and I
wanted to use a studio as a way of Ōkick-myself-in-the-assÕ, I suppose. So
there were two or three projects I did in the same period starting with the
record with Michel Wintsch and Franziska Baumann – I donÕt know if you
know that one: itÕs called Whispering – which is similar project inasmuch as we
were improvising and afterwards Michel edited it and made it into something
else. And after that I made a record with Jean Derome and Pierre Tanguay, All
is bright but it is not day, which is about live treatment in the studio, and Maybe Monday came
after that so we have three records that are all about how to alter the
possibilities of what the improvisation can be, using the studio as a mechanism
which can change how we react, how we playÉ
Éso the
improvisation was like producing the material to work onÉ
Éin a
case of Maybe Monday, which is the furthest the process became for me it was
quite complicated. Actually Myles Boisen was altering the sound that we were
making while we were recording – some of us could hear what he was doing
and some of us couldnÕt. Because when you are playing acoustic saxophone
without headphones youÕre just hearing saxophone so Larry [Ochs] had no idea
what Myles was doing. So first of all we generated a lot of recordings, which
were manipulated by Myles while we were recording so there was no choice. What
was very important for me was that this was not an option – it had to be
something where there was no going back. If we had done it separately –
effects on separate tracks so that we could take them away if we wanted to - in
the end it would just be the same kind of improvising. What I wanted it to be
was something irrevocable. And then it was all on two tracks – we didnÕt
do on multi-track, so everything went to two tracks – and when I took
two-track tapes away and started categorizing it and I had this list: this
amount of density or this particular key or this particular kind of solo
structure – started to make blocks of material and than I invented an
imaginary possibility of how I could make that into something else. So I wrote
a theoretical narrative of parts into my notebook. And I went into a studio and
I told the engineer exactly what I wanted him to do: weÕre gonna take minutes
3.20 till 5.16 and put it in the computer and weÕre gonna take minutes 7.01
till 7.21 and put in the computer – put all those pieces of material in
the computer and I said Ōok, I want to overlap those two and I want you to cut
that out and put this hereÕ – just not listening to it, just doing it
– and then we had the seventy minutes of music and then we listened to it
and said Ōoh, thatÕs terribleÕ [everybodyÕs laughter], or ŌthatÕs greatÉ.
Do you treat
that kind of work as a work of composer?
Of
course, but I think it is very important not to get too involved into aesthetics
too soon. So if I have been saying to myself Ōwe cut that and listen to thatÕ
and you say Ōwell, itÕs not quite rightÕ you donÕt have the sense of the whole
thing. So for me it is important first of all to make a whole thing and not
really worry too much whether it works or not. And then apply your critical
process to the totality of the material.
So do you think
that what you said about owning a space is only valid for a composition or also
for performing or improvising?
No, for
everything. I think this is a question of your responsibility to yourself as a
creative being – youÕre trying to, as best as you can, crystallize an
idea and you donÕt necessarily need to know what the idea means. Francis Bacon,
the painter, said something about how he was trying to make images as
accurately as possible off his own nervous system and I think this is a good
way to put it. You donÕt know the intellectual, theoretical definition of what
youÕre doing and sometimes itÕs very powerful and you donÕt know why, and
sometimes it doesnÕt work at all and you need to throw it away.
Are you trying
to teach that to your students?
IÕm
trying to teach my students not to waste their time, to be very consequent
about how they work, to realize their own ideas as accurately as they can. So
itÕs not so much about how I work but about discovering how they work and how
they can best do that. WhatÕs interesting about Mills is that we donÕt have the
restrictions of a normal music collage where youÕre learning how to do certain specific
technical things. TheyÕre not trying to teach new complexity or minimalism or
whatever, you know, basically you can come to Mills with any agenda you want.
WhatÕs important for me as a teacher is that you define your agenda and then
you try to work it out. And you spend your time doing that as consequently as
you can. So you come to work extremely hard and trust yourself.
Is there any
learning process for you as well?
Of
course, if I wasnÕt learning something from anything I would probably always try
to do something else. ThereÕs nothing like having students, many of whom are
more rigorously formally trained than I am – that constantly keeps you
thinking about what you do. When I have students who have studied longer than I
have, who have technical skills that I donÕt have, theyÕre studying with me but
they may actually write music better than I can, on a certain level. But on the
other hand they may be confused, they donÕt know what they want, they donÕt
know where theyÕre going, so what I can provide them with is a context to
define better the direction for themselves. And by so doing I have to define
for myself the direction that I want. Because I always have to separate myself
from the people IÕm teaching. I donÕt want to teach them how to be me.
We also thought
about ŌGravityÕ – the record you made with Scandinavians. Was that the
similar experience of learning? Or maybe a specific one?
Music
is a social process, a collaborative process, itÕs always a collaborative
process, you canÕt make it without collaborating, even as a soloist thereÕs a
process that goes on before you arrive at a solo performance that is
collaborative on some level. So if you ignore that youÕre denying an important
part of who you are. ItÕs not an accident that painters are painters because
theyÕre alone with their work, and musicians are musicians because they are
not. Everything IÕve done is
dependent on other people. And thatÕs how you move forward. And the art of choosing
which people you work with is probably the most important. ItÕs like saying,
you know, a musician who can do anything probably will [everybodyÕs laughter].
And similarly, choosing to work with ŌanybodyÕ means that you probably wonÕt
ever discover who you are. As you always choose your partners, you can put
yourself in a position of challenging yourself.
We canÕt avoid
that question we keep on asking ourselves: what does that mean, we always
wonder, that youÕre in a blues tradition. Where can we find in your latest
music the blues tradition you always keep in mind, as you usually say?
I said
that? IÕm not sure, but obviously as a teenager in England in the sixties,
blues had a transformative effect on my life. At the same time it was
uncomfortable because it had nothing to do with me. When I was a 16 year old
kid, singing those old songs from the American south was great and liberating
but also na•ve. When I was 16 years old it was more that I was getting rid off
my classical background and learning how to be free of paper and learning that
I could make stuff up. And identifying with the oppressed or whatever political
idea I may have entertained. So it was valuable process to go through. And as
youÕll hear tonight I can still play the blues [laughter]. But in my own music
this is something that I canÕt see clearly anymore. ItÕs just a part of who I
amÉ.
Yeah, thatÕs
what we thoughtÉ
But
have you heard the record with Aki Takase? This is a record where she invited
musicians to play the music of W.C. Handy - I played guitar, it was only two years
ago so in a way it was a road back to blues which was unusually interesting for
me.
This is also a
question we had an email exchange on – the question of overcoming the
blues tradition by European guitar players and the strange discussion and article
in the Polish press about it. Do you agree with that?
Huh?
II
Answers to an
online interview from May 2001 (questions now lost)
I started violin
lessons early in life (at 5 years old) but when my parents moved 5 years later
I changed teachers, and quickly lost motivation. I continued the lessons, but without much conviction. When I found a guitar (by chance at age
13) it enabled me to be self-sufficient: I had enough training with the violin
to be able to understand the basics quickly, and I could read music, so I
taught myself from books - 500 Guitar Chords, or Bach, or the Villa Lobos
Etudes, or Lute Music. But more
importantly I started learning things by ear from records, first by groups like
the Beatles, but later folk music from Bert Jansch and eventually a whole lot
of blues players, especially Mississippi John Hurt and Skip James. Because I didnÕt understand yet about
alternative tunings I learned their music in standard tuning, which led me to
play it in my own way. I didnÕt
have role models or other players I could learn from, except my girlfriend: she
had a friend who taught her clawhammer technique, and she taught it to me. It
changed my life! But the process
of learning by ear - the oral tradition - was mostly a matter of playing
records over and over again and trying to figure it out. I had a Yugoslavian friend at school
who taught me some of his folk music, and that was another big door that
opened......
So I
never went to an academy. I
wouldnÕt have gotten in anyway, and I abandoned the violin more or less
completely by the time I was 16. I
only took it up again as a ŌfiddlerÕ - in Henry Cow, and to play folk music at
parties.
I never made a
conscious decision to be a professional musician. First I just kind of drifted into it with folk club
engagements, and later with Henry Cow; I had various day jobs, like working on
construction sites or cleaning hospital operating theatres at 5 in the morning.
As the group started (very slowly) increasing its profile we depended more on
wives and girlfriends to make the money.
For the first 5 years we didnÕt make a record, and thatÕs an awful long
time to stay together with no commercial outlet. We couldnÕt have done it
without our partners!
Eventually we were making enough money to live on (just) and so I became
a professional without even noticing it......
You ask
if the blues was liberating for me, and yes of course it was, on many
levels. Not only the profound one
of escaping from paper and learning to listen very carefully, but also the deep
ŌvoiceÕ that is in the centre of any oral tradition, the passion and pain which
brought me into contact with a very different cultural history from my own, the
guilt which led me to try and define myself separately from my own culture, the
raucousness that enabled me to free my own voice, the understanding that
virtuosity isnÕt only the way itÕs defined by Western classical music; and so
on and so on. Later I felt perplexed, because the blues, which I had sung and
played as ÕmyÕ music from the age of 14 onwards, in reality felt like it had
nothing to do with me, that I was imitating something which was outside of my
own experience. I had to search
for my own music, from my own experience. Blues was the trigger that helped me
to start on this journey.
ŌOrganizingÕ and ŌimprovisingÕ are not
mutually exclusive at all - a composer organizes sound and so does an
improvising musician. The only difference is the time frame in which the
organization occurs; also of course the interpreter of the composition is not
improvising, though many aspects of the composerÕs work may have originated in
improvisatory or intuitive impulses.
I donÕt
have a ŌconceptÕ when I begin an improvisation. I find that thinking about a
performance ahead of time is a sure way to destroy it; in fact I do everything
I can to be empty of ideas at the moment I walk on stage. Only then can I be in the moment with
these people in this place, and be open and receptive to what occurs, and
inventive in knowing how to respond and also how to offer musical
suggestions. There is never one
way to do something. We are constantly taught right ways and wrong ways to do
things, and also how important it is to be true to your own ŌopinionÕ. And sometimes such ideas are important
and useful. But I also believe that if we understood that changing oneÕs mind
can be a sign of strength and humility and not just flakiness, things might
work a little better. In music you
have to be constantly ready to change your mind, and constantly alert to the
possibility of a change of direction......
If we talk of
influences I think it is more helpful to say that I am mostly influenced by the
people I work with - I could name this or that record or performance, but itÕs
not the same as working with a friend for a long time and exchanging ideas and
sharing experiences on a regular and long-term basis. So my milestones are Henry Cow, and Massacre, and Skeleton
Crew, and the Guitar Quartet and Keep the Dog - thatÕs where I learned the most
and I think if you asked my colleagues in those groups youÕd probably hear much
the same thing from their personal perspectives.
Style
is increasingly hard to define. Any one piece might refer in subtle or unsubtle
ways to many styles at once, and sometimes there are styles that were based on
other styles and we donÕt even know what the original style was any more.
If people ask you
what kind of music IÕm making in my dreams I would like to hope that you could
reply: ŅMusic thatÕs alive, that touches me deeply, that can make me laugh and
cry, that moves me physically, that has something to do with how we live now,
thatÕs personal and passionate, that takes risks, that may fail sometimes, that
I donÕt always understand, that makes me curious, that keeps me alert to the possibilities..Ó Or some combination of the above. ItÕs
not a genre...
And
what do you mean by understand?
Sometimes our bodies understand when our brains are too cluttered, and
why not leave it that?
Any sound has the
potential to be music, if the listener wishes to perceive it as such. And not, if she doesnÕt..... I dislike music that is made without
love, in the broadest possible definition of the word.
There
isnÕt a ŌmessageÕ. Communication
can also be a question of sharing a moment, and celebrating the fact that we
are alive. I write music from the
point of view of trying to answer questions that I ask of myself. Usually I fail to find the answer I was
seeking, but arrive at another question instead. If the audience gets something from my narratives, I am
happy; but thatÕs not the important motivation for writing the piece.
Werner and Nico
had sole responsibility for the whole of the film, including the choice of
which music to use where. I was
not interested in influencing this process, because I had no wish to make a
ŌdocumentaryÕ or to control my image.
I saw the rough-cut and made some suggestions, but mostly they ignored
them! Sometimes I suggested places
where we might go to shoot, and these we did; but not all of them are in the
film. For my own music, I think
there is almost always some kind of narrative feeling; but I donÕt think about
it when I do it, and I donÕt illustrate it in my mind either.
Film
and music are inseparable. Even when a film has no music, we hear it.
I often hated to
be in front of the camera, and I hate the parts of the film where I am talking
- self-conscious and stiff, and inarticulate.... But this ŌdenialÕ is also a form of vanity, because youÕre
thinking of all the deeply important and wonderful things you SHOULD have said!
As for
the comparison between processes, I think that in the material that was shot,
there is a deep and intuitive bond between the ŌmusicalÕ moment and the
ŌcinematicÕ one. The film-makers
were quick, and agile, and explored many aspects of the dialogue in innovative
and exciting ways. But when my performance is over itÕs over. When the shooting
is over, the film work is just beginning - 13 hours of footage, and 6 months of
constant work to make sense of the material. In this sense there is no comparison - Step Across is a
sophisticated composition constructed out of a large number of musical and
cinematic improvisations. As such
it sheds light on the improvisatory process, and does so in a profound and
beautiful way, but it doesnÕt ŌexplainÕ it - as you pointed out, there isnÕt a
plan anyway!
III
Responses to questions asked during an online
symposium on recording and improvisation (December 2004)
Is improvisation in music something specific enough
to presume a specific kind of recording strategy? Like, for example, should the sound engineer be as neutral
as possible [is sustaining the same levels of the recording parameters without
any respect to the changes in the live performance neutral or rather exactly
the opposite?]? Or should the sound engineer try to capture the special
ŌsomethingÕ of the moment [whatever it is?]? Or maybe it simply does not matter
[as far as the recording should be pure documentation and the way it is going
to be recorded is a part of the document itself]?
Last time I looked improvisation meant
making things up in the moment. There are so many different kinds of
improvisation in music as to render the question almost unanswerable in my
opinion. Maybe purist ŌimprovisersÕ have a polemic about recording. I donÕt,
particularly. As we know, the sound of a recording is never the same as the
sound of the performance. ItÕs always some form of approximation. And IÕve
heard recordings of very good concerts sound like very poor concerts. ThatÕs
part of the deal, even when you go to a lot of trouble to try and be
ŌaccurateÕ. IÕm actually more fascinated by what happens to the recorded sound
and how it colours and transforms and remakes the music, so that a
run-of-the-mill performance is suddenly riveting on ŌtapeÕ.
Having accepted and celebrated that on many
occasions, and having spent a good part of my creative life in recording
studios, IÕm entirely open to the idea of the engineer also being a performer,
improvising with the sounds of the instruments. IÕve done several records like
that, and I like all of them for different reasons. In any case, as soon as a
performance of improvised music is recorded its significance to the listener is
irrevocably altered, because it can be listened to more than once, studied,
compared, categorised.
IÕve
been altering recordings of improvisation in the studio for at least 30 years and
I find it a fruitful way to work. The result may not have much to do with
improvisation any more, but the only important factor for me is whether the end
result excites me or not, so that is not really an issue either. Perhaps this
has more to with how I have generally situated myself (and been situated) with
regards to other improvisers, which is pretty much as an interested outsider.
IÕm not really involved in it as a genre with rules and regulations.
My answer to all of the questions you ask
above is that it always depends, and any strategy is justifiable depending on
the context and the desired end result.
[2.] What
are the criteria of selecting the improvised material to issue?
Do you select between recordings of a certain
live-performance as a whole? Or maybe you cut out some parts of the particular
performance recording and put them together with different ones? [by the way:
what are the acceptable methods of manipulating the recorded material in the
studio if you are about to call it ŌimprovisationÕ?]
What does the answer to that question depend on? .
Or maybe on the improvised material ŌitselfÕ? What makes you decide that the
particular material is worth [or not worth] issuing? What makes the material good
enough to make an album out of it?
Maybe
this response should begin with the same pragmatic observation:
it
always depends, and any strategy is justifiable depending on the context and
the desired end result! Do I select between recordings of a certain
live-performance as a whole? Sure, if thatÕs the parameter that IÕve set
myself. Or maybe I cut out some parts of the particular performance recording
and put them together with different ones? Has been known. What are the
acceptable methods of manipulating the recorded material in the studio if IÕm
about to call it ŌimprovisationÕ? What I end up calling it seems the least
interesting aspect of this particular process. Obviously if IÕm presenting
something as a Ōheard as playedÕ performance, IÕm not going to do anything to
it anyway. And if not, what does it matter?
What
does the answer to that question depend on? I suppose some kind of attitude to
a perceived notion of authenticity, or accuracy. Recording always colors our
perception in this regard. Compare Big Boy CrudupÕs recording of ŅIÕm AlrightÓ
with Elvis PresleyÕs. Easy to make observations about how the Presley version
was tarted up – higher key, snappier arrangement, plenty of reverb
– but then you realize that the Crudup was recorded 15 years later than
PresleyÕs, and all of that mono, lack of reverb, in your face sound was a
deliberate choice in the face of a by then infinitely more sophisticated
recording technology. And this was also an aspect of marketing – in this
case the ŌauthenticityÕ of the original (as determined by the Blues revival
label I assume).
So,
does it depend on the idea of the recorded entity [an album?] I have in mind?
If thatÕs what IÕm working on, yes. If IÕm just experimenting, not necessarily.
What makes me decide that the particular material is worth [or not worth]
issuing? Same as any other kind of recording – Do I like listening to it?
Does it seem to be approaching the material from a different and interesting
angle? Is there that tantalizing feeling of there being something transcendent
that I donÕt understand? Does it resonate with me in this moment and in this
place and in this time?
And I
donÕt ever KNOW that the material is Ōgood enoughÕ to make an album out of it.
IÕve put things out that seem stronger now than they did when they were
released, and the opposite. You can only deal with your feelings in the moment
and not worry too much about the rest. I say no to more records than I say yes
to, put it that way.
[3.] Is
improvised recording possible? Is it possible in the practice of live
performance [musical performance, live-electronics] and studio work [recording
techniques]? Recording is a kind of practice – is it possible to
improvise it? Does it make any sense?
Like
most other forms of creative work, recording involves a fair amount of
improvisation even in its most conservative manifestations. You have to be
ready for sudden unexpected peaks and changes in the plan as the music unfolds.
As an engineer you deal with it. Traditionally that meant that you were still
trying to preserve the accuracy of the process as much as you could. But it can
also mean that you can be quick on your feet in more actively music-altering
ways as well.
Does it make different senses for a studio
improvisation and stage improvisation?
You can
approach them both in a wide variety of modes. IÕve had engineers improvise
with the musiciansÕ spontaneously generated material using signal processing or
mechanical contraptions with helium balloons, and it doesnÕt make much
difference if itÕs live or in the studio other than the studio being a more
controlled environment. Perhaps in the live setting the theatre of it can be
more obtrusive, but not necessarily.
Does it make any artistic sense?
To me,
yes, if it works. The chance of screwing up is one of the things that makes
improvising interestingÉ.
Is it something different for a musician and the
engineer?
I donÕt
make such a big distinction between them. Most of the engineers IÕve worked
with on any kind of regular basis have been musicians as well, many of them
improvisers. IÕve also worked as an engineer. Perhaps when youÕre in one role
or the other you may have a subtly different appreciation for your job.
If yes – in what sense does it differ from
improvising with other musicians?
Worth
noting that there are already colossal differences working with different
musicians. For example, I play duos with the drummers Chris Cutler, Han
Bennink. Jean-Pierre Drouet, and Evelyn Glennie. IÕd be hard put to find much
that they had in common with each other as improvising performers.
Has recording as a practice changed anything in the
practice of improvisation?
Well, how about the entire history of jazz?
For one thing. Given that the study of improvisation was enabled and vastly
accelerated by being able to study it on record. But from my own point of view I have noticed that
most of my practice as a composer has derived in some way from my experience in
the recording studio, and it would be pretty silly to think that this hadnÕt
had a major effect on my improvising as well. The parameters I work within are
often the ones I use in the studio, definitions like cutting, fading,
processing, altering, juxtaposing. layering and so on, these have taken on a
very physical practical dimension for meÉ
Is Ōlive sound manipulationÕ a kind of music
improvisation?
Sometimes.
Is it possible to improvise on the stage with a
pre-recorded multi-track? Can we still call it improvisation?
Did the
multi-track get recorded live in the same context? If so, then I would say
clearly yes. Actually I think I would say that itÕs possible to improvise with
anything. But it doesnÕt mean that it will always be the case. And it will be a
different kind of improvisation. But so what? Is it about setting up rules that
say this will be improvisation and this not?
What matters is surely if it speaks to us
directly and clearly whatever the mechanics of the communication?
If no – what is so specific about improvising
with people/instruments that cannot be reached in the process of recording?
Is this
only about improvisation? I recently saw Werner Bartschi perform a 3 hour
program of Paganini variations by Brahms, Liszt and others that was stunning in
its intensity in a way that no recording could ever be. IsnÕt this about the
physics and physicality of the way we receive sound and feel the vibrations of
air? A live performance has a physical dimension, a theatrical dimension, that
exists in a shared space and has to do with communal memory and a feeling of
community, as well as one of transformation. A record is mostly listened to in
a rather controlled intimate and unsocial environment. That strikes me as the
big difference, regardless of genre.
[4.] Is
a relation between improviser and the recording engineer a relation of
subordination? Can we agree that
[for some time, to some extent] the instrumentalist was treated by the composer
as nothing more than the medium of transmitting the pure ideas of the composer?
I
question this more and more, perhaps because my own practice as composer
depends on a rich and continuous interaction with the performers IÕm writing
for, and IÕm persuaded that this has probably always been the case, however
much it may have been reduced in importance by those who write about such
things (or donÕt). And I see the relationship between improviser and engineer
in exactly the same way. The relationship and the results are much better when
there is an exchange of ideas and a collaborative process. My own relationships
with engineers have always been creative and dynamic. We thrive on each other.
Do you think that the institutions of improvised
music – can we all agree that the improvised music [in some sense, to
some extent and on certain level of course] has become an institution? –
form that kind of inequality?
To that
I can only plead ignorance. Improvising is a thing that I do, not a club IÕm
trying to join or a genre IÕm trying to learn. IÕve always been outside of the
institution of improvised music such as it is, and its criteria, even if they
were able to be reduced or defined in any useful way, are probably not the same
as mine. I have to admit, IÕm not even sure if I understand this question.